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Profile Sorceress
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Message 121 - Posted: 2 Aug 2010, 16:09:37 UTC
Last modified: 2 Aug 2010, 16:10:54 UTC

Would you increse the granted credits level? 18 credits/hr is fairly low compared to most of the projects. A 2-3x increase would be on par.

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Message 126 - Posted: 5 Aug 2010, 18:51:25 UTC - in response to Message 121.

Would you increse the granted credits level? 18 credits/hr is fairly low compared to most of the projects. A 2-3x increase would be on par.


This has already been suggested.. but good to see someone else suggesting it.

Maybe the project just does not want or need very many participants.. because that is what they will get.. very few, until they increase the credits.

Crazy to think that top participant RAC of 4500 is in the top 10,(that is a single quad 6600 on most projects) and 57,000 is top 10 total credit. For as long as this project has been running, those numbers should be at least 3x times that.

Maybe i'll hop on over to uFluids for a credit booster!


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Message 133 - Posted: 9 Aug 2010, 16:19:54 UTC

So sorry I could not reply you in time! I think it should be not a problem to increase the cerdits level! It is just a time problem, I have a lot of work to do! Please frogive me to put it off!

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Message 137 - Posted: 9 Aug 2010, 18:51:37 UTC
Last modified: 9 Aug 2010, 19:08:32 UTC

Thanks for taking the time to reply Jie Wu.

In keeping on topic I have another problem that concerns me. I have been watching the WUs that are aborted by the project and I have noticed that the abort command is happening after my computer has finnished processing the WU and is uploading the results. In other words I am wasting computer time on redundant work and losing credits I have earned in processing. The last 3 WUs: 209566, 217204, 222349 (+others), had all been completed and were being uploaded when the abort command came. And no credit was granted for my time.

Can you please give this your attention?

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Message 140 - Posted: 10 Aug 2010, 3:32:58 UTC

Right. There are two ways to abort tasks from the project server side:

1) Abort tasks regardless of status.

2) Abort tasks, only if they have not yet started crunching.


In general, use #2 unless it is absolutely necessary to use #1. For example, the project may decide that a batch of tasks are no longer helpful, so they want to cancel the batch. If it doesn't hurt anything, use #2. Sure, the project cannot use the results. But people have already invested time/work in the tasks that have already started. It doesn't hurt anything to just let them complete, and award credit to them for their time.
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Message 141 - Posted: 10 Aug 2010, 3:39:27 UTC - in response to Message 137.
Last modified: 10 Aug 2010, 4:11:23 UTC

Work unit 227568 just finished being processed. When I tried to upload the work I got an 'aborted by project' message. This problem is caused by sending out 3 replicas of a WU when you only need 2 for validation. This is fine as long as you pay ALL three users for their work. That's not happening. You can also drop the 3rd replication and pay only for the two you require. No free pass on this issue. We should get paid for all WUs completed whether you need them or not. I have suspended further processing until this problem is resolved. Your urgent attention would be appreciated. TIA

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Message 143 - Posted: 10 Aug 2010, 4:54:47 UTC - in response to Message 141.

The way that option should work is, the extra task is canceled only if it is not yet started. The surplus task should never be canceled if already started.
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Message 144 - Posted: 12 Aug 2010, 1:49:45 UTC

I'm am still not getting paid for work done. CAS is not paying for the third validation, only for two. I have suspended this project until this issue is fixed.

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Message 145 - Posted: 13 Aug 2010, 8:18:12 UTC - in response to Message 140.

1) Abort tasks regardless of status.

2) Abort tasks, only if they have not yet started crunching.



I thought the default was the case 2! But as Sorceress said, it is probablely the case 1. I will check that later!

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Message 146 - Posted: 13 Aug 2010, 17:25:16 UTC
Last modified: 13 Aug 2010, 18:02:23 UTC


1) Abort tasks regardless of status.

2) Abort tasks, only if they have not yet started crunching


In the case of 2), I dont see how you can abort any of the 3 WUs if they are all sent at the same time. All 3 will have already started processing. You can either hold the 3rd WU until the first two are validated, then send the 3rd WU ONLY if needed. Or pay for all three, in which case. scenerio 1) is acceptable. As it now stands, the first two computers to upload a valid WU, get paid while the 3 computer does not. I find this unacceptable!

I strongly prefer NOT to process redundant WUs with out being compensated for my work.

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Message 147 - Posted: 15 Aug 2010, 9:26:04 UTC - in response to Message 146.
Last modified: 15 Aug 2010, 22:59:49 UTC

I have checked it, but I am sure it is handled in case 2! Is it a bug of BOINC?
Has anybody else run into this problem? And does anybody know how to fix it?

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Message 149 - Posted: 17 Aug 2010, 18:51:57 UTC - in response to Message 147.

I have checked it, but I am sure it is handled in case 2! Is it a bug of BOINC?
Has anybody else run into this problem? And does anybody know how to fix it?


Jie Wu, You need to understand that you CAN NOT stop WUs from being processed once you have sent them out! Case #2 can't be done! This is not a Boinc problem or bug, it's the way you have the project server setup to run. Once it receives the two validated WUs it needs for quoram, the server *AUTOMATICALLY* aborts the third WU. Apparantly, the server does not check to see if the third WU has been completed or not. I know for a fact, the WUs I indicated earlier were, indeed, completed and were aborted when I tried to upload them. I don't know how much plainer I can make that. Your server is aborting completed WUs! Thus, you are wasting our time and resources by not granting credits for our completed work. This has to stop! It is not my desire to be disrespectful, but all this 'beating the bushes' is getting us nowhere.

Here is the fix. You can...
1) Stop aborting the third WU if it has been completed and grant the proper cretit for its successful completion. Or...

2) Stop sending out 3 replicas if your not going to pay for all three if successfully completed. Or..

3) Send out 2 replicas and wait for their successful completion. If one or both fail, then send out another replica as needed to satify your 'quoram'.

This is the way the other projects handle their *redundancy* needs. They don't ask their users to work on WUs and then not credit them for their time. That's what this project is doing. It's unethical and shows a lack of respect for our efforts on your behalf.

Normally I would have already drop this project and moved on (I'm sure others have already done so). But, I like this project and the science behind it. I prefer to remain working for it. I understand it is new and has it's problems. For these reasons, I am trying to resolve these problems in a politeful manner. But I can not continue wasting my time and resources on uncredited work. Either we fix the problems or I will detach and move on. And I will inform others of what I see accuring here. There are forums for just this purpose.

It's your choice. Please advise us on your decisions.

Regards,
The Sorceress





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Message 150 - Posted: 17 Aug 2010, 19:52:28 UTC
Last modified: 17 Aug 2010, 19:56:22 UTC

As a footnote to my earlier reply to Jie Wu, I will admit that I am not familiar with BOINC server software. While indeed, there maybe ways of aborting WUs before they have started processing, I see time constraints as being a key factor in making that impossible. The project server would have to immediately contact the host directly, (within seconds of sending out the WU) to abort it. Or certain controls could be imbedded in the work unit to wait for a 'go/no-go' command from the server before processing. Again, this would require direct intervention from the server. I have been using BOINC for 4 years now. As far as I know, BOINC only contacts the project's server when requesting work or reporting completed work or during a user udate. It may be possible for a project's server to contact a host directly (outside the BOINC environment?), but not that I am aware of.

CAS@H is seeking redundancy by sending 3 replicas out at the same time, but only requiring 2 for a quoram. The first 2 hosts to report valid WUs, get the credits. The third WU is then *automatically* aborted as not needed. The problem is, the third WU is most likely to have been alreay completed. Either the server is not checking the third WU on it's status or CAS@H is deliberately ignoring it's status. Either way, CAS@H is not granting any credits on the third WU.

In the beginning, CAS@H was paying for all 3, but I see that stopped a while back. Now they only pay for 2. That required direct server intervention by admin. As such, I can not help but feel that CAS@H is aware of the situation and refuses to rectify it. I am not sure why that is.

I would appreciate other users weighing in on this, so that I am not a voice of just one. I think Jie Wu may view me as a cranking ol' witch, but I assure you, that is not the case. (At least I don't think so LOL). Anyway, if he heard from others as well, he may find a solution that is a 'win-win' for us all. If any of you have uncredits WUs that you know was completed but aborted by the project, please post your finding here. Your help would be appreciated.

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Message 151 - Posted: 18 Aug 2010, 13:14:50 UTC

Hi,
i also had a lot of wasted WUs. It´s time to fix the problem. I hate chrunching for nothing!
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Message 152 - Posted: 18 Aug 2010, 18:27:11 UTC - in response to Message 151.
Last modified: 18 Aug 2010, 18:27:40 UTC

Hi,
i also had a lot of wasted WUs. It´s time to fix the problem. I hate chrunching for nothing!


Thanks for your input Henery. I am hopeful we can resolve this issue soon.

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Message 153 - Posted: 19 Aug 2010, 3:38:43 UTC

For me everything works fine. Redundant tasks are only aborted by the server if they have not yet started crunching. And if two people have already finished a task and I send in a third result for the same work unit, I still get credits.

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Message 161 - Posted: 19 Aug 2010, 14:47:30 UTC - in response to Message 153.
Last modified: 19 Aug 2010, 15:15:30 UTC

For me everything works fine. Redundant tasks are only aborted by the server if they have not yet started crunching. And if two people have already finished a task and I send in a third result for the same work unit, I still get credits.


Hmmm... your 'milage' is different than mine. Maybe you should take a closer look at your facts. Out of 20 WU I completed and uploaded, 9 were aborted without any credits granted. I KNOW they were completed. I watched them complete! That's almost half!

When all three replicas are sent at the same time, there is a 95% chance work will have started on all of them. Also, the time between being sent and the time validated is more than enough time for all three WU to be completed, given the short processing time of CAS@H WUs. Otherwise, aborting any WU until it's validated, would defeat the whole purpose of redundancy in the first place. Timing is the KEY factor in all of this!

BTW, I am retired and have hours of time to watch what goes on with my projects. If there are problems, I have the time to collect the facts. Hope this explains how I arrive at my conclusions.

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Message 162 - Posted: 19 Aug 2010, 16:07:08 UTC - in response to Message 153.
Last modified: 19 Aug 2010, 16:14:52 UTC

One World, One Dream, what is happening, is your work unit was one of the 2 required for validation, in which case you would get paid for it. But were all 3 replicas paid for? I doubt it. If you look at all three hosts, 2 are paid, one is not. I can almost guarantee the third work unit had been completed but was aborted, not paid, because his result was not needed. He did the work, but not paid. The project will not abort any WU until the first two are validated. The time involved to validate would assure all three have been processed. This is the point I'm trying to make. We are not getting paid for work completed! Check it out for yourself. Remember, last one in, buys the beer! :)

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Message 163 - Posted: 20 Aug 2010, 11:22:03 UTC
Last modified: 20 Aug 2010, 11:53:08 UTC

I have checked my tasks list again, there are 104 tasks in it, and only 6 got aborted by the project because they were redundant results.
For all the other work units, three results were sent in (my computer is slow, so I am usually the last to send in the result). For all of these work units my tasks list shows that all three people got their credits. For example it says:

Computer ID___________Claimed Credit________Granted Credit
356_______________________6.12___________________5.57
1182______________________5.81___________________5.57
1437______________________5.55___________________5.57

This means that all three people got their credits, am I correct?

I am quite sure that my 6 aborted tasks were aborted before their calculation began, because I also often check in on my Boinc manager and actually saw it happening that way. It always says that the calculation time of my aborted tasks was 0. What does it show for your tasks that were aborted after their calculation was finished? Does it also say that your calculation time was 0?

I do not know why 9 of your 20 completed tasks were aborted without any credits, this really should not happen... Your percentage of aborted tasks is so much higher than mine, do you have any idea why this could be?

What kind of equipment do you use? At the moment I am only using one slow Pentium M 1.6 Ghz processor, and my Boinc manager version is 6.10.18 (I know I should update).
I am looking forward to your reply, hopefully this problem can be resolved soon!

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Message 164 - Posted: 20 Aug 2010, 13:30:36 UTC
Last modified: 20 Aug 2010, 13:31:52 UTC

The other day, I have made a lot of tests for this problem, and now I am sure the server is handling the wrokunits in case 2. For your problem, I think it is possible that the following two cases bring about abortion.

Firstly, the upload_file daemon will verify the signature of the uploading file. If it is wrong , the server will abort your job. Of course, no credits!
Seondly, your result is not right comparing with canonical result, although you finish the job, but the server will not grant cerdits to you.

Aslo, what I want to say is that this is also happening in other projects, not just CAS@home. My computer is also running WGC, you konw, it is a successful project. I checked the result list I had finished, and some results were not granted credits, either.

Please check your computer, network and BOINC client, although maybe it still can not resolve your problem.

Hopefully everything is OK!

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